how to deal with knights

[Syphax]

Other than getting your opponent to charge into close combat with your bows, what is another way to quickly destory knights? (I guess that elephants can do the job as well as bows if not better I suppose. But other less obvious methods?)

[Fredrik]

There are a couple of good combos to take out knights. Rear supported pikes will do them in, at +7 vs +3. Spears rear supported by Psiloi is also a good matchup, at +5 vs +3 (I generally try to avoid using Spear rear support, due to the risk of losing two elements on a bad roll). Remember that three Sp can be rear supported by a lone Ps.

Light horse is also a good option due to its quick-kill vs Knights, if you can attack a single Knight with several elements, otherwise your Lh run the risk of being doubled.

However, the best strategy is usually to avoid them. Knights are a tough element to kill, so it's better to feed them something they can't handle well, such as bows or War Wagons, and get on with killing four other elements.

[Stephen Webb]

It is also possible to utilise the fact that they follow-up a recoiling opponent to overwhelm them with overlaps or contact on a flank.

This assumes that the element fighting can recoil and is not quick killed by the knight.

However the safest method is to use an artillery element and get a 6-1 split, especially if it is their general.

[David Kuijt]

Knights are often mindless. Fight mindfully and win.

To elaborate: Knights want to get into a position where they can get a glorious, overwhelming, frontal charge against weak troops in the open, carrying all before them and win the day.

All you need do to defeat them is make the above impossible. There are many ways to do so.

1. "glorious" -- Kn commanders often concentrate on their Kn. Fight their other troops, and let them spend pips on their Kn to no avail. Why make it easy for them to win glory?
2. "overwhelming" -- get overlaps on both flanks of a short line, rather than letting him hit a big line all at once, or get overlaps of his own. Or set your defenders on a gentle hill, forcing him to charge up it.
3. "frontal charge" -- don't line up in front of him unless you want him to charge (i.e. you have bow or elephants or pike or etc etc. above). Angle your rlines so he has to wheel his group, possibly putting him at risk of a bad recoil; use ZOCs from BGo to peel off some of his troops; force him to try and run his Kn wide around a big patch of BGo, etc. etc.
4. "weak troops" -- Make the troops opposite them strong -- pike, elephants, warwagons, bow, camels, psiloi-supported spear.
5. "in the open" -- knights are the worst troop types in existence in bad going. Use bad going, and fight so as to make the terrain important.
6. "carry all before them" -- Knight are impetuous, advancing into gaps (and double overlaps). Use reserves, flank attacks, and LH to fill gaps, punishing Kn for their impetuous advances. With Cav or Camels, put a LH behind them, so the Cav can recoil through the LH leaving the Kn with a double overlap facing the LH and a QK.
7. "win the day" -- if all else fails, get lucky.

Kn are good troops. But I've crushed Kn armies with Auxilia armies in the open (Catalan Company vs. Free Company, twice in a row in Midnight Madness). You gotta be smart -- but being smarter than a Kn commander often isn't difficult! When the visor goes down and the lance lowers, the blood starts to boil and the brain evaporates.

[El' Jocko]

Originally Posted by Syphax

Other than getting your opponent to charge into close combat with your bows, what is another way to quickly destory knights? (I guess that elephants can do the job as well as bows if not better I suppose. But other less obvious methods?)

Knights are great. Why would you want to destroy them?

Originally Posted by David Kuijt

You gotta be smart -- but being smarter than a Kn commander often isn't difficult! When the visor goes down and the lance lowers, the blood starts to boil and the brain evaporates.

Hey! I resemble that remark. And just for that, I'm pulling out my knight armies tomorrow. They're coming right at ya, and I'm rolling nothing but sixes!

- Jack

[David Kuijt]

Originally Posted by El' Jocko

Hey! I resemble that remark. And just for that, I'm pulling out my knight armies tomorrow.

Do you have any knight armies? I thought they were all light horse. Or maybe that's just how they fight?

Originally Posted by El' Jocko

They're coming right at ya, and I'm rolling nothing but sixes!

The first, I'd believe. The second -- BWAHAhahahahahahahhehehehehehe -- you kill me, Jack.

[Pthomas]

Originally Posted by Syphax

Other than getting your opponent to charge into close combat with your bows, what is another way to quickly destory knights? (I guess that elephants can do the job as well as bows if not better I suppose. But other less obvious methods?)

Scott,

You really can't go wrong by following DK's advice. To offer just a few more examples of ways to combat Kn's, try any of the following:

Engage Knights with bad going to the rear of your (not quick killed) troops (such as Cv, Cm, Lh) then pull your troop out of contact and back 2" into bad going. The Kn will impetuously advance and then an element of Ps can move forward through your troops to engage the Kn in bad going (hopefully with overlap). So Kn vs Ps in bad going with double overlap is -1 to 2 with the Kn QK'd.

Tucking your 'weak' troops behind terrain so to force the knights to suffer an overlap on one or both flanks.

Tucking artillery behind bad going can dominate a significant portion of the battlefield vs Kn movement.

Deploy your forces so that the Kn's can not easily attack the forces he will naturally wish to target (behind strong troops, in terrain, with other troops deployed to hinder the Kn's advance against your troops, or in column so that they can manuever away from the Kn's).

Restrict the Kn's options with channeling terrain or by refusing the wing or center on which the Kn's are deployed and will attack. For example refuse the center while aggressively attacking on the wings against other forces in the Kn army.

Use forces with superior movement (Cv and Lh) to outflank and outmanuever the Kn force, breaking his plan of attack or forcing him to react to your actions.

Deploy in depth with the 2nd line troops such as Lh having the speed to cover a long line of troops and a QK effect on the Kn. If no gap is blown in your line by the Kn's, some troops (Kn, Cm, Cv, Lh) have the ability to withdraw far enough from combat that even with the Kn's follow up a Lh can be inserted into combat. An El (general) to the rear can completely disuade a Kn attack. Imagine a double overlapped Kn facing an El (general or otherwise). Be careful to not get your troops crushed against the El.

Sacrifice a Ps in front of your line. So that that the Kn line must either engage the Ps and get that Kn pulled forward (obviously the opposing general is the target for this trick) into double overlapped combat or have the 2-3 pips to break up its line to attack your sacrifice unit and also the line behind. It can work, but it is a little desparate.

There are more, but that is certainly enough to get you thinking about how to handle Kn's. I think the best advice is have a positive attitude, while Kn's are tough, like every other element in DBA, they have a weakness. Think about how to defeat them in more ways then Combat Factors and QK's and you will soon think of a solution.

[Pavane]

Originally Posted by Pthomas

Engage Knights with bad going to the rear of your (not quick killed) troops (such as Cv, Cm, Lh) then pull your troop out of contact and back 2" into bad going. The Kn will impetuously advance and then an element of Ps can move forward through your troops to engage the Kn in bad going (hopefully with overlap). So Kn vs Ps in bad going with double overlap is -1 to 2 with the Kn QK'd.

Note that Knights, Scythed Chariots & Warbands pursue into Marsh and Rough bad going only. They do not pursue into other types of bad going. A good reason to lay these out if you are defending against Knights.

[Syphax]

Thanks to all of you for your detailed and very helpful advice. Now to print it out and try some of these tactics. I am especially impressed by the advice as how to use the impetuous advance of knights against them should I manufacture a close combat with them.

(Now, can you help me with double ranked pikes? I suspect that some of your advice applies to them as well. See my new thread.)

[APHooper]

There are a lot of good ideas for dealing with knights in this thread, including several I have never tried. What I haven't seen is any advice on dealing with the feelings of an opponent stymied in the various ways described above.

The great appeal of fighting with knights is that they quick-kill absolutely every kind of foot element on the board, and will only suffer the same fate if they are foolish enough to charge into contact with bows. And most players more or less expect that their opponents will give them at least some chance to hit a vulnerable element in good going over the course of a game. Knights in real life had much the same expectation, and when foot soldiers returned to the use of pike squares and defensive works to resist being crushed by knights at the end of the Middle Ages, it made the chivalry surly.

Likewise, many players may find the game not worth continuing if you force them to run their knights into bad going. There the shoe is on the other foot, of course -- knights are -2 in combat, and quick-killed by everything under the sun. So, if I have an army of nothing but foot elements, I'm happy to to live in bad going, even if I am also -2 there, because I don't have to worry about being quick-killed -- the knights do.

But my experience is that half of all players will just resign a friendly game, or try to destroy themselves as swiftly as possible, when confronted with the necessity to charge knights into bad going. I find it much more conducive to good relations to park the rear of my spears or blades in the bad going, with their front edges conveniently sticking out for contact. I'm -2, and I can't receive any psiloi support, but I don't need to worry about the quick kill, and neither does my opponent. With Aux, warband and psiloi in a similar situation, you can fight the knights at 2 to 1, and again, there's no quick-kill.

Of course, it can also make sense to simply let the knights hit you if you have a sufficiently supported and extended line -- fighting at +4 and up against an opponent that can't ever get better than +3 are odds than many generals like to play. And no knight commander ever pouts too long when doubled-up in the open -- they know the odds are against success, but take the risk for the chance to see the enemy disintegrate in the face of their charge.

So, this is not the question originally asked, but I wonder how others answer it anyway: How do you deal with knights and make your opponent like it?

Andy Hooper
Bacteria Valley
Seattle